Saturday
20th August 1938.
Memorandum of conversation with John Murray, of Port Moody, son of John
Murray, RE, one of the child passengers of the "Thames City",
1858-59. He was at the City Hall, waiting, when Major Matthews,
the City Archivist, arrived tthat morning at nine: Murray had just come
in from Port Moody.
Holding a leather pouch with a pointed flap, 4" x 3",
pipe-clayed, brass button, and button hole, and stamped 814, D,
BRA, Mr. Murray said, "This is one of the pouches belonging
to the Royal Engineers. I imagine they carried it on their waist
belt, and I think it was to hold the percussion caps; they used large,
very large, percussion caps; used them on the Enfield rifle; short
Enfield rifle; it is one of the Royal Engineer pouches; I swear it
is. Father had a whole lot of them in a barrel."
Major
Matthews said, "Well, when the RE went away, didn't they take all
their accoutrements away with them?"
Murray:
"Those who went back to the regiment did. But, there was a
whole lot of uniforms, accoutrements, short Enfield rifles, stores,
which were left behind; that remained at the Camp. All the
equipment they left behind remained at the Camp for years. We
lived next door; that was why Father was looking after those
stores."
Matthews:
"Well, I thought he left the RE when they went back."
Murray: "So he did, but the uniforms and equipment was in the
old Store next to our place; in the old abandoned RE store
building. Some of their stuff got stolen; I don't know how; nobody
did, but the Indians, some how or other, always managed to get a rifle,
but when we found them with one, we always took it away from them; that
is, the rifle someone had stolen out of the old store building. I
have part of a scabbard belonging to Father's sword (old name for
bayonet); I cut the tail off it, and made it into a hunting knife
scabbard."
Holding a leather belt, pipe-clayed, square brass buckle with broad
arrow, WD 8, Murray said, " No. This is not a RE belt left
behind. I don't know exactly what it is, but it is not a RE
belt. Just previous to Governor Seymour arriving, there was a
company formed called the Seymour Artillery, and the belts, pouches and
sword (bayonet) and rifles formerly belonging to the RE, which had been
left behind, were served out to the Seymour Artillery. I know,
because Father was one of the principles in the Seymour Artillery, and I
saw it done. I remember when the uniforms were made by one of the
tailors in New Westminster, Tommy Walsh, Thomas Walsh, who had been in
the RE and they (Seymour Artillery) were the ones who received Governor
Seymour on his arrival at the Camp; that was where the arch was erected
for him to pass under; they made it of all kinds of flags,
evergreens. But this is not one of the RE belts."
(Note by JSM: The belt and the pouch, were given me by LB Lusby of New
Westminster. He told me the belt belonged to the BC garrison
Artillery in New Westminster, and the pouch he obtained from an outhouse
adjoining John Murray Sr.'s home at Port Moody; he found it there
whilst they were camping one summer, and whilst John Murray was away for
some time from his home; he just picked it up and kept it.
Further, Judge Bole told me about 1908- 1910 that the Seymour Artillery
wore the uniform of the Royal Artillery (of England) with the exception
of the shoulder ornaments - he was an officer in the Seymour Artillery)
Murray: "There was no official cemetary at Brockton Point; it
was just a place where they buried people. I went over there in
the spring of 1878 or 1879 to attend the funeral of a child belonging to
Peter Plant. We had no parson with us, but there was in the group,
in those days, a bull puncher, Jack Jackman, ox teamster I suppose you'd
call him. There was no minister so he read the burial
service. The grave was just a hole in the ground in the bush, and
as near as I can remember there were other graves there. I was
just a young fellow, and I was surprised when the bull puncher read the
burial service; he was just a rough bull puncher. Just when they
were going to put the child in the ground he said - there was no
minister - "Is no one going to say anything." and somebody
said "no." they were just going to put the child in the
ground, and he said "If you will allow me, I will." He
had a book in his pocket, and I was surprised to see a rough bull
puncher pull it out, and read the burial service out of the prayer
book."
Memo of Conversation with John Murray, 15 December 1936:
Murray: "The children of the RE of 1859 who are still
living are: Hugh Murray, my brother, New Westminster; John Henry Scales,
Vancouver; John McMurphy, New Westminster; John Murray, myself, of Port
Moody; Arthur M. Herring, New Westminster; Mrs. George Turnbull, New
Westminster; Mrs. Wardell, who was Martha Morey, Serjeant Morey's
daughter. Thomas Deasy died last year and William Murray, my
brother, was born after we got here."
"But, about Arthur Herring. You see, there was a lady in the
Old Country, and she was married to a man by the name of Herring, and
Arthur was her son. Mrs. Herring also had a daughter, I think her
name was Sarah, but don't know; she, the daughter, was also on the
"Thames City". Sarah, if that was her name, married a
man, William Smith of the RE, orderly of the RE Hospital. Smith took his
discharge same as the rest of them, and opened a drug store on Columbia
Street, New Westminster, where Arthur Herring got his training as a
druggist, and I think he got some training in San Francisco, too, but am
not sure."
"Before Mrs. Herring came out with the Royal Engineers, she again
married; this time one of the RE, by the name of Crart (sic). I don't
know how he spelt it, but it was Crart or Krurt or something, and Arthur
Herring and his sister came out with their mother and step father on the
"Thames City"."
"Now, the Herring who belonged to the Seymour Artillery was not the
same Herring at all; different family altogether; no relation. Arthur
Herring, child of the RE, is still living in New Westminster; so is
Tillman Herring living in New Westminster."
